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| Topic Started: 3 Jun 2007, 09:50 (11,287 Views) | |
| Oldguyy | 3 Jun 2007, 09:50 Post #1 |
T-Pol's Champion
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Question: Apparently,every seven (7) years a Vulcan must return to Vulcan to Mate.: I recall in the original series Spock had to return to Vulcan for that purpose and Kirk accompanies him. I was never clear on if it was only with a Vulcan or if substitutions could be made. If once on Vulcan any legal aged Vulcan of the opposite sex would do or if a specific Vulcan (a bethrothed) was necessary. I remember that Kirk got in the middle of it and wound up fighting either Spock or standing in for Spock in a fight. Whatever, every severn years the urge would hit a Vulcan. I was never clear if this was a mating for a Conception, if there had to be a bonding ceremony or just what. Spock never showed any interest in females otherwise although the Nurse kept batting her eyes at him. I seem to remember Spock telling her that he wasn't interested in females other than in that severnth year. So, When T Pol ambushed Trip in Harbinger she apparently didn't need the seven year window. Unless they played double solitaire or sang Row Tow Your Boat all night. She seemed capable of mating physically with Trip. Later she indicatted that she was capable of an intimate affair of some duration if she desired. In the Orion female episode T Pol said that when a Vulcan mated there was an intimate bond formed which would explain why the shared thoughts, daydreams etc. That would be a very intimate bond indeed. I suggest that the bond would be a permanent physical bond preventing either T Pol or Trip from having intimate relations with any other which would expl;ain why the marriage to Koss was only spritual and never consumated because T Pol couldn't, wouldn't have intimate relations with any male of any species. Same for trip. Apparently T Pol knew of this bond and its parameters. Aso explains why Trip was immune to the Orion females. So, you all who have read the encyclodpedias and seen all of the Movies which I haven''t read or seen. Explain the seven year itch and the apparent ability of T Pol to physically mate with trip? |
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| Rigil Kent | 3 Jun 2007, 10:14 Post #2 |
Psychotic Simian With a Gun
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Simple answer comes from Roddenberry who said that Vulcan males are driven to mate every seven years, but can have sex any time they want to. Longer answer: Prior to the crappy Bounty in season 2, everything in Trek canon pointed to pon farr being an exclusively male affliction. Consult Amok Time, where Spock specifically states that, every seven years, Vulcans are drawn home to take a wife, or Star Trek III where Saavik states, point-blank, that Vulcan males enter pon farr. Even Enterprise's own canon (season 1 episode, Fusion) indicates that its a male only thing as Kov states that the males are driven to mate every seven years. Proponents of the both sex pon farr argue that, because no one prior to Bounty specifically said that females don't have pon farr, it's inclusion in that crappy episode doesn't clash with canon, despite the fact that Vulcans are known for being very, very accurate with their word usage (which, to me, indicates that it very clearly does clash with previously established canon.) That said, the pon farr is an urge to mate. It doesn't preclude sexual relations outside of this cycle. It's just that every seven years after puberty (when the writers remember that it's supposed to begin after puberty), Vulcan males are driven to mate. |
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| chrisis1033 | 3 Jun 2007, 11:14 Post #3 |
Board Emperor
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If I recall... Spock was driven to mate, but he had to return to Vulcan because thats where his intended mate was... If she had been elsewhere would he have needed to go to the other place? |
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| Rigil Kent | 3 Jun 2007, 11:18 Post #4 |
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Psychotic Simian With a Gun
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Well, the transcript that I found a long time back said "to Vulcan to take a wife." I'm presuming that, if she had been on Earth or Andoria, he'd have been driven to go there ... but who knows? The thing that immediately leaped out to me is use of "wife." Not "mate", but "wife." Throw in Saavik's comments and Kov's comments, and it seems pretty cut and dried... |
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| JiNX-01 | 3 Jun 2007, 15:03 Post #5 |
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Vice Admiral
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I take it this is born out of the Bounty episode in which we learn female Vulcans experience pon farr ... In Amok Time, T'Pring notes they she can try to "divorce" him -- break the betrothal -- by the kalifee (whch leaves either her champion or her intended dead). So, presupposing that she is also in pon farr, despite the obvious lack of any form of agitation on her part, I would say that she must be capable of mating successfully with a human, on the off chance Kirk would decided to "keep" her had he won. Also, Sarek mated with a human female and appears to have survived. :yes:
Actually, in The Cloudminders, he tells Droxine that mating between 7-year-itches is possible under the right circumstances. He also gets involved with Leila Kalomi in This Side of Paradise.
Not just capable of mating with Trip. Determined to mate with Trip. :hug:
I always figured T'Pol rejects Koss physically because he bullied/blackmailed her into marrying him. It's possible the bond is also an issue.
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| Oldguyy | 3 Jun 2007, 17:39 Post #6 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Good replies. As I have said, I am not up on the Movies or the encyclopedias. Which leaves my knowledge a little lacking. The Bond thing intrigues me. (disregarding the writers Crap) It is a very intimate Bond. It suggests that Trip and T Pol are joined at the hip emotinaly and sexuallly. Like a marriage with out a priest giving it legitimacy. Binding nonetheless with a good deal of force. At least nice to think of it that way. Damned writers left so many gaps which they didn't even try to cover up. |
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| Oldguyy | 4 Jun 2007, 08:59 Post #7 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Okay, seems that opinion is that this is a Male thing although there is some confusion about females being involved in this. Question: Suppose Male gets the seven year itch, goes to Vulcan finds that his intended got bored waiting for him and married/bonded with another male. Hubby would not cotton to some male coming in and wanting to play house with wifey. He has Priority being legally married to female. could Male come in an challenge him to death fight? That sure would foul things up good. What about the Kids if dad gets killed in a death match? Not good. Does the Male with the itch simply stand under a cold shower until the Seven year thing passes? There is mutch to be considered. Suppose the female would rather French Kiss a Cobra than mate with the Male with the seven year thing going. |
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| Kevin Thomas Riley | 4 Jun 2007, 14:45 Post #8 |
High Acolyte in the Church of T'Pol Worship
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Well, this is basically what happened to Spock re: T'Pring in Amok Time. But my qualified guess would be that the kal-if-fee would be invoked, if not by the female, then by the male in heat. But one would presume that the feamle would invoke the challenge, since that is tradition, and that she has expressed desire to be with someone else. |
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| Oldguyy | 5 Jun 2007, 09:15 Post #9 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Assuming that the female was qute happy with husband then there should be law in place which would prevent a male in Heat from attackiing a happily married cuple. If not then there would be anarchy on Vulcan. Any soociety, no matter how primitiave, must have some sort of Law even if it is the Law of the strongest or smartest. A Society without some kind of rules would not last very long. Admittely invoking a fight to the death would be a quick way to divorce unless Hubbby won. |
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| Oldguyy | 5 Jun 2007, 12:30 Post #10 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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One other thing: What sets off the Seven Year Mating urge? It must be Hormonal but something must trigger it. If it is Hormonal then it might be confined to male Hormones leaving females out of it. |
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| Kevin Thomas Riley | 5 Jun 2007, 13:43 Post #11 |
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High Acolyte in the Church of T'Pol Worship
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My guess it's hormonal. I also think it pre-dates Vulcans adapting Surakkian philosophy, since there is no way that it's something that could've developed over less than 1,800 years (the time between the Awakening/Sundering and the ENT era). I suppose it's a trait Vulcans have always had, but that wasn't that serious when they were still a violent race. Only when emotional suppression entered the picture did the seven year itch turn into a big deal. The Romulans would probably experience a milder version of it, but since they're not into emotional suppression, I guess it for them is just a heightened period of aggressiveness and arousal. Also, my theory is that a Vulcan male already in the throes of pon farr induces the blood fever in his intended mate. |
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| Oldguyy | 5 Jun 2007, 21:27 Post #12 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Kevin, interesting. I will have to think about over night. Which is going to lead into my next question. |
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| Oldguyy | 6 Jun 2007, 12:06 Post #13 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Kevin, i too considred that the Male in the seven year heat might set off the female but finally rejected the idea. Too many variables: Female happily married to another, Female simply couldn't stand the male in heat and would pick up a rock and throw it at him whenever he came in sight. If this were the case then why didn't Koss simply wait for the seven year thing to set of T Pol causing her to bond/mate with him. Vulcan is obviously a male dominated society coming out that Male Domination. All Male dominated societies has arranged marriages. This is simply a way for dirty old men to get thheir hands on a tasty young thing. For instance once females achieved a parity of economic and political power the arranged marriage became a thing of the past simply because women did not want them. It would seem that women on vulcan were forcing a parity with males and arranged marriages, while still tradition, were on thier way out. This seven year itch would be a handy way of getting around that. I wonder why this seven year thin g was not bred out of the Vulcan males. As I have said I simpy don't know enough about what has been writtn or appeared in moves about Vulcans. I wish that someone would come up with a definitive tome on Vulcans one which laid it all out and jettisoned the stuff that writers may have shoved in to a film or episode to fit the plot. |
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| Kevin Thomas Riley | 6 Jun 2007, 12:51 Post #14 |
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High Acolyte in the Church of T'Pol Worship
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If they were already married/bonded this wouldn't be a problem. And if they were only betrothed she could call the kal-if-fee, just like T'Pring did.
Again, there would be no seven-year itch in her for Koss to wait for. |
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| Oldguyy | 6 Jun 2007, 22:53 Post #15 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Boy, am i confused about this seven year thing. I thought it was confined to males. Now, it seems that somehow females are caught up in it. Makes my head spin. |
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| Oldguyy | 6 Jun 2007, 23:15 Post #16 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Okay, Next question: Vulcan females. I am assuming that they are Carbon based Humanoids breathing an atmosphere similar to that of Earths: Rich in oxygen with trace amounts of other gases. (of course Human acresses playing the parts of aliens with Pointy ears or Nose jobs helps.) How similar to Earth females are Vulcan females? They obviously ingest food, expell waste from thier bodies the same way. From the series, T Pol had no problem with Earth Gravity or atmosphere on board ship or on the Planet Earth. Which suggests that the difference in the Gravity and atmosphere of Vulcan and Earth are not very different at all. Do Vulcan women Ovulate? HOw often? Do they ovulate once every seven years? Or are they on a regular cycle as Earth Women? If they get Pregnant how long is the gestation period? Since it seems that Humans can interbreed with damned near every species it has come across, why not Vulcans? Vulcan females should be attractive to Human males and Human males to Vulcan Males. If a marraige occurs Offspring would be of prime importance to the couple. So, it wouuld seems that the two, Human and Vulcan can successfully interbreed. Why do Vulcan females put up with this seven year Crap and this junk of having invoke a fight to the death. She should be free to choose as she wishes. As I have said, Vulcan is coming out of a male dominated Society into one of a equal society in which females have choces and aren't merely chattles. So, T Pol being a free, of age, female she should be able to choose who she wants to mate/bond/ marry regardless of Specie: Trip. |
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| Rigil Kent | 6 Jun 2007, 23:32 Post #17 |
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Psychotic Simian With a Gun
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It was confined to males until the Beebs thought it'd be a great idea to rob T'Pol of her dignity and have her run around in heat for a crappy episode in a desperate attempt to get viewers during the second season collapse. Now the entire thing is all muddied up. My personal view is pretty much identical to KTR's. The male goes into pon farr ("in heat", if you will) and transmits this to his mate through their telepathic bond, thus inciting a state of reciprocal arousal and preparation for propagation. It might also explain the heightened sense of smell on female Vulcans - the male entering his time emits certain pheromones which triggers the female's respone; the pheromones of a mated male (as in possessing a mating bond) likely only affect his mate. This is all speculation, mind you.
No idea. They have copper-based blood (hence the green color) and its logical to assume that their hearts are in the same spot as the males (around the liver, I believe) which automatically makes them different. Since Trip seemed pretty ... happy (initially, anyway) at the beginning of the morning after scene in Harbinger, it's logical to conclude that their genitalia is pretty much the same since its kind of difficult to buy that T'Pol stripped and there wasn't actual intercourse.
Again, no idea. Nothing that I'm aware of answers this.
Well, thanks to Spock, Lorian, and Elizabeth, we already know they can.
For the same reason that human men "put up" with the female menstruation cycle (Ladies, it's not an insult, merely a biological analogy). It's a naturally occurring thing (pon farr, that is) to them, something that is simply part of their biology. By not putting up with it, they effectively doom the species to extinction. As to the second part of your question, that was a central fixture in the TnT relationship. Remember that Trip's argument to T'Pol in Breaking the Ice was that she had free will and could do what she wanted.
But the question that needs to be answered is thus: is Vulcan truly a male-dominated society? There is enough circumstantial evidence to go either way. And we've seen that the females do have options, otherwise T'Pring wouldn't have invoked the challenge. Not to mention, based on the comments about the arranged marriages, it doesn't look like the men have much choice either. I would actually argue that the women have all the power in the Vulcan society since the men have to mate every seven years. Therefore, the women ultimately decide whether the guy lives or dies. Treat her like crap and she's going to be off-planet when you go into pon farr and the plak tau kills you dead.
Ultimately, she did. Her marriage was one of convenience intended to protect her mother and it was pretty obvious that she didn't harbor any affection for Koss. I suspect that he knew she would never bond with him, hence his decision to get out of the marriage. |
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| Oldguyy | 7 Jun 2007, 12:54 Post #18 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Rigel, once more my ignorance is exposed. I haven't seen the movies or read the books. I am hoping to get near a B&N soon and will try to buy some encyclopeias. All I have to rely on, right now, is logic. Logic says that Males dominate the society. It is in their interst that tradition be upheld. Males have much more to gain from arranged marriages than females. Always have. I think invoking a death match is Crap. Why should a female have to Put the male she loves in danger just because of some outmoded Tradition? in an equal society when females have reached political and economic parity with males things like that disappear. (Instance:In early Amnerica when the east was mostly settled Conservative Tradition held sway: Arranged marruiages etc. However, on the frontier where it was a young persons game, women shared in the hardshps and dangers so they had parity with men and things like arranged marriages, etc disappeared. You could not tell a woman who worked beside day after day, faced the same dangers day after day that she was not your equal. Didn't work.) I believe that T Pol was a rebel of a sort. I also think that because she mentioned that there were other Vulcan/Human marriages that other rebels (women packing up and leaving vulcan) existed. I thought that the smell factor only applied to Humans as they smelled a bit to Vulcans. Not Sexual oders given off by a male Vulcan. Did you say that if the female was off Vulcan when the seven year thing hit that the male would die? Perhaps that was why Koss was in such a hurry to have even a sham marriage. I simply nned to know more. Perhaps you can give me a crash course? |
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| Reanok | 7 Jun 2007, 14:30 Post #19 |
Vice Admiral
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Go to star trek .com they have a whole section of their website that deals with Vulcan culture and the episodes that deal with Vulcans and it's got pretty good nformation. Star trek Ecyclopedia and other books that deal with Vulcans are Spock's world By Diane Duane and the Vulcan's Soul books by Josepha Sherman & Susan Schwartz go into alot of great deal into Vulcan Bonding and talks about Pon Farr and about Spouses that Like each other and other Vulcan women being able to break a bond if they dislike the men they're bonded to and are attracted to some other men.The women can break the bond if she was intimate first with another male. |
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| Oldguyy | 7 Jun 2007, 15:28 Post #20 |
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T-Pol's Champion
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Rigel, lets take the Heart first. All mammels on Earth have the Heart centrally locatted. This is not arebitrary. There is good reason for it: The Heart functions better and more easily in thatl ocation. It stands to reason that Vulcans being Humanoid they too would have the Heart centrally located. The Heart in Vulcans would function far better centrally located than down around their Butts. Also, all of our organs are placed where they are for the same reason function. Not always the best place But space is limited. Do Vulcabs gave fivel ungs? Lack of a Heart centrally located would leave quite a gap in the chest cavity. A waste. I believe that a Humanoid body would follow function hence a centfrallly located Heart. I believe that some writer felt that "lets make Vulcans diffferent, put their Heart down around their livier where it would be off base. Probably believeing that the average Bear wouldn't give it a second thought. |
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